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TOPIC: Vote NO !
#44105
Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 213
This is just my view and not the opinion of MR2 Drivers or any of the Admin team
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#44106
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 154
To everything in life or is there a particular issue this relates to? lol

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#44108
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 327
Why no?
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#44110
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 217
Why vote?



What vote?




WTF?
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#44111
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 213
Not so much a reason - but why are we rushing to be one of the first to vote it in ? A lot of countries are sitting back and waiting. Enda & Co just want to be mates with Angela and so, are total Yes Men.

More importantly - these bailout funds aren't bailing us out because their parents brought them up to be nice and mannerly and do ARKs (Acts of Random Kindness). If Ireland defaults on its banks debt, then it will cause a lot of problems in the market. This is why they are giving Greece a last chance for the 43rd time.

So, on that basis, the different European bailout funds will NOT let Irish banks default/fail.

If you took the banks out of it, Ireland has a manageable deficit for its day to day stuff. We are paying most of our debt to keep the banks afloat.

So, if we say YES, we will be locked into not spending too much (which can be a good thing - but not if we need more for stimulus spending). If we say NO, Europe will still help us but (and this is my main reason) ....


we will finally have the backbone to stick up for ourselves ! We have to stop just saying "yes" to everything Europe says and start to negotiate !!

I agree that at a high level the idea to not overspend beyond our means is a good thing. But, for me, this is about Ireland starting to play hardball
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#44112
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 284
I've disappeared off the electorate list so I have no vote , (just in case they start using that list to send out letters for charges etc)
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#44114
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 129
I am voting NO
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#44117
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 80
everybody i know is voting no screw the government
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#44123
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 327
Copied from Octane via Bunk:

A Yes vote means sticking with the status quo approach of borrowing more and more money in order that we spread the process of fiscal adjustment over a longer period of time, but in the meantime run up a completely unrepayable debt. We will do this in order to preserve our welfare rates, public sector pay and pensions, and to avoid having to tax lower paid people somewhat close to the European average. The hope is that by being good Europeans and keeping as many friends as possible onside, that when a greater solution is being worked out for Europe as a whole (once contagion has spread to other countries), that we will be looked upon favourably. Yes is essentially about not closing any doors or forcing anything to happen soon. Even if you think that the borrowing etc has to stop but on balance you want to be around at the endgame with a seat at the table, and you just don't want to burn any bridges and see what happens, a Yes vote is probably for you. No advocates would do well to remember that if we don't like that endgame (whatever it is) we can always default in the end anyway, and its arguable whether it is much different to defaulting now.

A no vote means potentially shutting down certain political and economic avenues, hastens the point at which we potentially leave the Euro and possibly hastens the onset of austerity measures. I think people should largely ignore the advocates for the No side. While by no means certain, a No vote is more rather than less likely to lead to consequences which are completely at odds with most of what the largely left "No" side stand for. If you think that the borrowing has to stop, and we need to disengage ourselves from Europe and possibly seek our own currency with all the associated potential knock on effects on peoples savings and the economic direction of the country then a No vote is for you. You have to imagine the No vote has greater short term event risk associated with it.


And my post on it from Octane:
My heart say no, but my head says yes

Why no, because it will sharpen the focus on saving money and closing the gap in the balance sheet mighty quick. Pull the plaster quick nurse!

Voting no however may shock the system beyond the Japanesque zombie situation and make life harder over a longer period.

Choosing yes, ties us to a sustainable path not current achievable by the voting cycle we currently run. It also makes us more stable in the unsettled seas of Europe which makes us more attractive for investment. This helps me as I work for most of the multinational's, the more money they spend here the better IMO. We will also get to keep some friends in Europe instead of gaining enemies.

So I will voted yes, for me its a no brainer.
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#44129
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 102
Couldn't agree more with the no vote. F*** the EU, they want us in debt so that they can keep us down and take as much of our power as they can. I'm sick of us being the best boys in the class and getting nothing to show for it, while the Greeks go off rioting every other day and they get everything. I hope there's a convincing no vote on Thursday and when the government ask us to vote again I hope it's an even more convincing no vote. I want to live in a country run by the Government for the people, not a country run by an organisation for the banks and big businesses.
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#44142
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 213
Thinking about it again - i agree with Slipslide splitting it into two - with the heart and head.

My heart says that we need a backbone and to stand up for ourselves.

However my head thinks - if we vote NO, then we have more control and are not tied into constraints / austerity. This is great - IF, we trust our government to get us out of this mess. But, i don't trust them.

To be honest, i trust Germany/Europe as being more capable more than i do the Irish Government.

i think we need the controls of the Fiscal Treaty. The only reason i would vote NO is so that we show them that we mean business and want a better deal on cutting our bank debt/
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#44161
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 102
Spidey wrote:
Thinking about it again - i agree with Slipslide splitting it into two - with the heart and head.

My heart says that we need a backbone and to stand up for ourselves.

However my head thinks - if we vote NO, then we have more control and are not tied into constraints / austerity. This is great - IF, we trust our government to get us out of this mess. But, i don't trust them.

To be honest, i trust Germany/Europe as being more capable more than i do the Irish Government.

i think we need the controls of the Fiscal Treaty. The only reason i would vote NO is so that we show them that we mean business and want a better deal on cutting our bank debt/


More capable definitely, but what makes you think that Germany/ Europe has our best interests at heart?
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#44162
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 154
mnixon wrote:
Spidey wrote:
Thinking about it again - i agree with Slipslide splitting it into two - with the heart and head.

My heart says that we need a backbone and to stand up for ourselves.

However my head thinks - if we vote NO, then we have more control and are not tied into constraints / austerity. This is great - IF, we trust our government to get us out of this mess. But, i don't trust them.

To be honest, i trust Germany/Europe as being more capable more than i do the Irish Government.

i think we need the controls of the Fiscal Treaty. The only reason i would vote NO is so that we show them that we mean business and want a better deal on cutting our bank debt/


More capable definitely, but what makes you think that Germany/ Europe has our best interests at heart?


Whats the worst that could happen...?!

Oh yeah...

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#44170
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 217
In any decision the head will always be a better long term option than what the heart picks.

The state of the majority of the developed world's economies is down to greed pure and simple. It isn't just the greed of the banks/bankers but the greed of everybody who had got used to living beyond their means till the point where that became the norm.

Earn it then spend it - a simple principle that we all should live by. Other than my mortgage I have no debt, if only the majority of the population were similar then the current situation may not be as bad.

Too many people were buying houses out of their price range, taking fancy holidays, driving expensive cars etc etc. We all know someone like this .... that is really who is to blame.

The government didn't take out the credit cards for you, they didn't give you a mortgage at 5x, 7x or 10x your salary, nor did they give you a 100%+ mortgage. They didn't even force you to buy a >£35k Mercedes on HP to pay back from your <£20k salary.

What the Irish government did do was take the Republic of Ireland from Europe's poorest nation to Europe's richest within 10 years ..... they were OK then. No one criticised them when Intel, HP, Microsoft, Dell, Google etc etc were setting up their Euro or world headquarters around Dublin.

Look for the real reason to find the real solution and stop pointing the finger elsewhere. Everyone is to blame, some more than others, but everyone is to blame.

Whether you believe me or think I am talking crap, make sure you make a reasoned choice when you go to vote rather than jumping on any anti-establishment band wagon. The wrong outcome might or might not send a message but it really could bankrupt your country and screw it up for longer than your lifetime.
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#44173
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 327
Spanky wrote:
Whether you believe me or think I am talking crap, make sure you make a reasoned choice when you go to vote rather than jumping on any anti-establishment band wagon. The wrong outcome might or might not send a message but it really could bankrupt your country and screw it up for longer than your lifetime.

Well said Spanky.

We all have our own choices to make for the future of the country make sure its an informed one.
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#44175
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 213
mnixon wrote:
Spidey wrote:
Thinking about it again - i agree with Slipslide splitting it into two - with the heart and head.

My heart says that we need a backbone and to stand up for ourselves.

However my head thinks - if we vote NO, then we have more control and are not tied into constraints / austerity. This is great - IF, we trust our government to get us out of this mess. But, i don't trust them.

To be honest, i trust Germany/Europe as being more capable more than i do the Irish Government.

i think we need the controls of the Fiscal Treaty. The only reason i would vote NO is so that we show them that we mean business and want a better deal on cutting our bank debt/


More capable definitely, but what makes you think that Germany/ Europe has our best interests at heart?


I don't think Europe has our best interests at heart either - countries are run like compnaies - they need to make their bottom lines balance.

So, i see capitalistic greed everywhere - but i see Europe as more capable and better regulated than the jokers here in Ireland.

+1 on Spanky's point to make an informed decision. Where is option C) where i vote for the Fiscal treaty but to get a better deal on the debt ?
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#44176
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 106
Spanky wrote:
In any decision the head will always be a better long term option than what the heart picks.

The state of the majority of the developed world's economies is down to greed pure and simple. It isn't just the greed of the banks/bankers but the greed of everybody who had got used to living beyond their means till the point where that became the norm.

Earn it then spend it - a simple principle that we all should live by. Other than my mortgage I have no debt, if only the majority of the population were similar then the current situation may not be as bad.

Too many people were buying houses out of their price range, taking fancy holidays, driving expensive cars etc etc. We all know someone like this .... that is really who is to blame.

The government didn't take out the credit cards for you, they didn't give you a mortgage at 5x, 7x or 10x your salary, nor did they give you a 100%+ mortgage. They didn't even force you to buy a >£35k Mercedes on HP to pay back from your <£20k salary.

What the Irish government did do was take the Republic of Ireland from Europe's poorest nation to Europe's richest within 10 years ..... they were OK then. No one criticised them when Intel, HP, Microsoft, Dell, Google etc etc were setting up their Euro or world headquarters around Dublin.

Look for the real reason to find the real solution and stop pointing the finger elsewhere. Everyone is to blame, some more than others, but everyone is to blame.

Whether you believe me or think I am talking crap, make sure you make a reasoned choice when you go to vote rather than jumping on any anti-establishment band wagon. The wrong outcome might or might not send a message but it really could bankrupt your country and screw it up for longer than your lifetime.


^...Unfortunately...alot of sense in this post..I will add that the Irish government should really have intervened in what was an obvious unsustainable property bubble...but they didn't want to ruffle any feather with their builder mates.

I didn't buy into the bubble or should I say I said to myself I realised I'd missed the boat when 3 bed gaffs in Dublin were 400k and there was no way I was commuting from Portlaoise everyday ...

Anyway heart says No...but mind says Yes ...they are going ahead with this regardless whether we are onboard or not.
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#44178
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 217
Spidey wrote:
Where is option C) where i vote for the Fiscal treaty but to get a better deal on the debt ?

It's hard to negotiate when the other side holds all the cards.

If you want to negotiate a better rate on a (e.g.) credit card, you can threaten to go elsewhere - this could also apply to Sky TV, mobile phone etc etc. The threat of losing the business usually opens up new offers not previously available to you including a reduction in what charges you are faced with.

Previously I have:

phoned BT (no longer with them) - told them I didn't want the bother of researching other options and asked for a discount on my monthly charge. As I was outside my min term I held the cards and got £5 per month.

credit cards - after the 0% on purchases period finishes, ask for an extension. If they say no then do your research, see what is available then try again. If they say no again, take out a new card and cancel. Once you try to cancel they will match or better the other offer. That said, you are better to get rid of the credit cards - I only get one when going on holidays now.

mobile phone (on behalf of Mrs Spanky) - told Vodaphone what deal they would need to give to keep her as a customer. They matched it but forgot to quote the price +vat. When they tried to add VAT I told them that the price quoted was assumed to include VAT as they were dealing with a consumer (non business) and hadn't stated the terms of the price.

All good advice for your personal life but the problem for Ireland is that they cant make a similar threat on the country's debt. An improved credit rating is the only way but that is hard to get until you (the country) is further down the line.
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#44187
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 102
111Spidey wrote:111
I don't think Europe has our best interests at heart either - countries are run like compnaies - they need to make their bottom lines balance.

That's the way I see it too, so why would another company (Germany) want to help our business get back to competing with them? Sure they need us to stay afloat to make themselves look good and to buy a few bratwursts and Erdingers off them but they don't want to see the Celtic Tiger days coming back any time soon. We've always punched above our weight in Europe and it's no secret that France wants us to change our corporate tax rate and if we just keep giving away our power we're eventually going to have to give in on that, and then we're going to lose our Multi-Nationals and make attracting investment an even bigger challenger than it already is. And it's not just losing the corporation tax, it's losing the right to implement that kind of cutting edge thinking that got this country to where it is/was.

A fiscal treaty is for life, not just a recession.
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#44192
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 73
too right my vote will be NO
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#44197
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 15
dont matter what u vote...u no longer live in a democracy and u aint done for years...dont be so blinkered jesus... democracy does not exist!!! vote no...and the no vote wins.. i guarantee they will be a re vote.. its a can o' shite..wouldnt even bother me arse point in case Julian Assange WikiLeaks please.....open ur eyes ...the guy is a whistle blower yet he's been shut down with bog standard Defamation of Character shit its c.i.a text book...call me a flake if ya like i dont give a shit... but jesus open ur eyes
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#44198
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 102
greg 1973 wrote:
dont matter what u vote...u no longer live in a democracy and u aint done for years...dont be so blinkered jesus... democracy does not exist!!! vote no...and the no vote wins.. i guarantee they will be a re vote.. its a can o' shite..wouldnt even bother me arse point in case Julian Assange WikiLeaks please.....open ur eyes ...the guy is a whistle blower yet he's been shut down with bog standard Defamation of Character shit its c.i.a text book...call me a flake if ya like i dont give a shit... but jesus open ur eyes

Who doesn't have their eyes open?
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#44205
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 15
just people in general mnixon... man im startin too sound like jim corr lol
sure dont be mindin me i have a tendence to go on rant's its part of growning old
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#44210
Re: Vote NO ! 6 Years, 4 Months ago Karma: 213
Wow - hard one to decide on.

While researching, i came across this which makes it a bit clearer for me :

For starters, This Treaty is going to be changed anyway. The new French President and the German parliament have both demanded significant changes.

Think for a second, about what the Government is saying to you: “The French and the Germans can demand changes, but the Irish people can’t”.


So, for me, voting NO now seems to be a good idea - not to oppose better control in Europe but just to slow down and see what the further stimulus based changes are going to be built into it.

We do need control over over-spending in the future. But, we also need stimulus and not complete austerity to get to the under control stage. So, stimulus needs to be discussed further and built into the Treaty.

So, for that reason, i will be voting NO and YES

NO this evening - not a NO, i don't want the Treaty - but NO, i don't want Enda (yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir) Kenny to rush in and accept the Treaty as is.

Then, when Ireland objects and France and other countries start to oppose it in its current form and they then make sure they build it so that it addresses rebuilding countries economies, then I will vote YES
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